Meirav's Blog Archive

stuff I originally posted on Multiply before it shut down

one of the hardest things

one of the hardest things for us humans, it seems to me, is understanding one another.

it’s dead easy for me to understand the bits in you that are similar to me – that’s easy, because I know what it’s like. but to understand those bits in you where you are different – that’s the challenge. to understand, and to accept – to allow you to be different, to accept you as the unique individual that you are.

I’m reading a book called Personality and Prayer by Ruth Fowke, in which she talks about the different prayer styles that suit different personality types, and I’m stunned by reading about ways of praying that some people find really helpful whilst to me they seem not just unhelpful but impossible… again and again I’m confronted by this challenge: yes, you want others to accept you as you are, but can you return the favour? can you, meirav, accept that for some people using pre-written prayers can actually be a help in connecting with God?

That’s just one example – the last example I came across, in reading the chapter about people who approach life mainly through their senses and who have a strong need for life to be orderly. (SJs, I think, in Myers-Briggs lingo.) Their strong need for order, for routine, for clear rules – all that puts me off, but I expect they would find my strong need for a certain degree of chaos rather baffling too… And when I got to the thing about using pre-written prayers I was really stunned, because this is something that to me seems almost wrong: how can you have a relationship with someone if the only way you communicate with them is by using other people’s words? and yet in this book I’m told that there’s this whole bunch of people for whom it is often helpful to read prayers written by others, and to use prayers whose words are familiar, because, as one friend she quotes put it: “When you know the words off by heart then you can concentrate on the meaning instead of trying to figure out what you want to say.” To me this sounds super weird, because for me the only mode of expression which seems real is if I put things into my own words. But we’re all different – and just as I long to be understood and accepted just as I am, so I need to learn – more and more – to accept others just as they are.

I was thinking about these issues recently when one of the elders led the service in church and the way he went about it seemed to me so very stiff and formal – but then I thought: this is how this guy is, he is stiff and formal, can’t I accept him as he is? just as I want to be accepted with my more informal ways – so I need to allow him to behave the way he does. I think there are times in church life when we can fall into the trap of equalling a certain form of behaviour with being open to the Holy Spirit – like if you’re not waving your arms in the air when singing worship songs, you’re not there yet. But surely just as it is ok and acceptable for me to wave my arms in the air when singing, it should be equally ok for someone else to stand and sing without moving a muscle. Just because we’re free to do xyz, it doesn’t mean that we have to do it. And if someone isn’t doing it, that doesn’t mean they haven’t got the Holy Spirit in them – each person is going to have their own way of expressing themselves. It’s just so easy to judge people by what we see – but God sees what’s in our hearts, he knows if someone is just making a big show to impress others, he also knows if someone is just naturally shy or reserved.

and he accepts each of us just as we are.

30 comments on “one of the hardest things

  1. Wise Old Woman Speaks
    31 March 2011

    well, he made us all those many and varied ways so he accepts each of us just as he made us. having come from the methodist tradition into the pentocostal movement with brief forays into seventh day adventist, new age philosphies, exposure to science of mind and now abiding in the catholic tradition (can't imagine what the next decade may hold) i have seen and been a part of many different forms of worship and MANY different forms of prayer. all of them have left their mark in some form or another either by incorporation or exclusion. i don't think any of them would point to me and indicate i was "one of their's" any longer. that's okay. God and i get along just fine one on one.

  2. Michael Romeo
    31 March 2011

    Another reason to accept people as they are even if their mindset doesn't mirror ours is illustrated in this sentence. I was surprised when I read it. I have never seen you as one who likes a certan degree of chaos. I have seen you as someone who likes order and rules. Our perceptions of one another, especially in a forum like Multiply where many of us never meet in the flesh, can sometimes be inaccurate as compared to how we all see ourselves.

  3. Meirav Berale
    31 March 2011

    Interesting… yes, I suppose you don't get to see my desk very often :)and we are each complex creatures, so together with my very deep need for a certain degree of chaos, I also have some need for order and rules – I guess it's what Jung would call my shadow side. It's a part of me that I don't like so much – which makes it more difficult to accept it in others.

  4. Michael Romeo
    31 March 2011

    And I have spent the a good portion of my adult life addicted to rules and structure and have spent the most recent bit of time bucking against that part of my personality and rebelling against things that would hold me back from exploring and discovering. If it is my "shadow side" it better look out because I am fashioning one heck of flashlight. It is making my life in the Catholic Church very interesting. Some of them just don't know what to do with me anymore.

  5. Meirav Berale
    31 March 2011

    and wiseoldwoman said:i don't think any of them would point to me and indicate i was "one of their's" any longer. that's okay. God and i get along just fine one on one.and all I can say is: the thing is to be one of His, not one of theirs… (whoever "they" might be)

  6. Michael Romeo
    31 March 2011

    but it's still fun to watch the expressions on their faces when you say or do something totally unexpected :-)

  7. Michael Romeo
    31 March 2011

    How do you do that double quote thing?

  8. Hilly O
    31 March 2011

    your resident semi-agnostic atheist (etc etc) writes:I meditate – I don't pray; but then if meditation is a focusing of the mind – so it seems to me is prayer. As I understand it when you pray you focus your thoughts on a need…a need to understand, to change something within yourself; Or request – you ask your god to help you, guide you, reassure you etc.In meditating we seek to find the answers within ourselves – not from an exterior being – a god.Some people need to take a defined position in order to meditate. The classic cliche of the lotus pose is one usually comes to mind when non-meditators think of it. But sitting in a comfortable chair, lying on the ground…these are all chosen positions.Sometimes I meditate when I'm walking. I can focus on the inner me as I walk; I concentrate on my breathing until I am isolated from the world around me (but I keep my eyes ope or I'd fall over!) Sometimes I meditate in a quiet semi-darkened room with an incense stick burning…maybe even with gentle music. I can meditate to the sound of a bird-singing or the rain falling on the leaves outside my window.The essence is that I am meditating…I let myself go with the eddies of life; I try to float. The content of my thoughts is influenced by my state of assurance. But I don't meditate to get a result – other than that of making the next step on the journey of life and understanding where I am before I do.So consider the way people pray – the physical….Pray-ers (people who pray – not the prayers) tend to either kneel or stand with head bowed; or sit with head bowed on the back of the chair in front.(I do go to churches when friends have rites of passage; these are things I have observed) Hands together and eyes closed (and plenty of non-christian religions do that). Down on hands and knees with the forehead on the ground ( and up and down….) these are all legitimate and work for the pray-er, either because it is a part of the ritual they need or because…'that's the way we do it.'What they pray is another matter….again the contrast and the similarities with meditation. I may take a 'text'…an aphorism from a thinker – Buddha, Jesus, Mohammed, a poet, a novelist…something a friend said…. I use ti to explore myself – my needs my way is seeing and understanding my place in the world. I could use a book of suggested meditations – there are plenty of them around. But these are starting points – stimuli to make me follow and explore where and why and who I am and try to understand it and find peace….nirvana. the text is not the meditation; it is not the object of the exercise but the starting pointA pray-er may use his/her own words or use a 'pre-written prayer' to guide his/her thoughts. A pray-er participating in a ritual will use those pre-prayers…recite them/read them and maybe let them lead to personal reflection. The text is often the object of the exercise; the prayers that are common to all, recited in unison to affirm/confirm a belief a shared faith.Ultimately, whatever we call it, however we do it, we are all doing the same thing. Trying to come closer to the reason for our being here and now. comforting our faith in ….(you choose)We might also ask 'do you need a church/mosque/temple/schul to pray – to come close to god (or whatever)….or can you find that same inspiration in a wood or a field or sitting on the top deck of the number 9 bus going to work every morning?'Again, consider that the meditator does not necessarily go to the same place every time. May not have a communal meeting place where others will gather to meditate with him/her.Is it the 'how' or the 'where' that matters…I should have thought it was the 'why' and the 'who' that are important whether you are mediating or praying (or both?)

  9. Robert Figures
    31 March 2011

    I agree, Meirav.

  10. Robert Figures
    31 March 2011

    I agree.

  11. Meg Dunn
    31 March 2011

    i church with a lot of SJs. they feel ever so much more comfortable and secure and able to focus when their world is clearly laid out, ordered, and familiar. (ok, so they're mostly I's as well. that's probably why they prefer the familiar.) i believe that our denomination has been primarily _STJs and _SFJs. (The T's love the book learning, the F's are more people oriented, but they both like structure and formality.) [intermission while i talk on the phone with another PTO mom and you all start talking about shadow sides.] there's a movement in our church that seems to be run mostly by NT's (which is what I am). there's a lot of boundary pushing. i think the NT's who are leading the movement (like Tim Keller) are, for the most part, sensitive about pushing boundaries, giving good explanations as to why they should be pushed, but not cramming it down people's throats. but some of his followers must be SJ's. SJ's tend to take what they believe to be true (in this case the writing's of an NT or so) and then they enforce them on others. (SJ's are great protectors of tradition. even if the tradition is fairly new.) the combination of NT theology and SJ enforcement is driving a wedge straight down the center of the denomination. it's really frustrating and disheartening to see. all of that babble just to say that i can see the value of both sides of the personality spectrum in our denomination, and they could work together really well if they tried. the SJ's would be an anchor to reality when the NT's get all flighty. and the NT's would help to pull the SJ's to places they would otherwise never have explored. but instead they're working against each other, to the shame of the name of the God who they follow. :-(

  12. Michael Romeo
    31 March 2011

    I use meditation often as a form of prayer. I agree with the school of thought that says within each of us is a portion of the Divine (some go so far as to say a complete portion) and meditating is a way of consciously connecting with that part of you that is God, Holy Spirit, Source energy, Tao (there are so many terms people use to label it). I consider meditation a definite form prayer and one of the most efficacious.

  13. Hilly O
    31 March 2011

    "I consider meditation a definite form prayer and one of the most efficacious." that is the essence of what I mean. You use meditation as a form of prayer. but it is not a 'definite' form because every meditator has a different need and Journey of Discovery. If you use mediation as a means to focus your prayers you will get to where you want to go; but I suspect that you know where you want to go….as one who meditates in the abstract I can only hope that my Journey will become clear to me. I have not goal, no destination. I guess you have heaven in mind as the end of the line.

  14. Hilly O
    31 March 2011

    duh…what's an SJ etc (I'm thinking Jesuits but I suspect I'm wrong;)

  15. Michael Romeo
    31 March 2011

    ROFL. I think it refers to a Myers-Briggs scale. Funny, I'm Catholic and I never made the connection to the Jesuits.

  16. Meirav Berale
    31 March 2011

    yes, the Why and the Who are much more important – the How/Where/When questions are peripherals that we humans have a stupid tendency to get hung up on. We have a tendency to assume that whatever works for me is the right way to do it, and if someone does things a different way then "they're not doing it right". That's the essence of what I was talking about – this silly human tendency to judge other people without understanding what it's like to be the way they are.to take the last issue you mentioned, the question of place – of course different places will work better for different people. there's tons of different factors that go into it – our personality, our cultural background, all sorts of different sensitivities we might have. even physically – some people can't cope with going into a church where incense is used because it gets them into a coughing fit…for me – the easiest place for communicating with God (which is what prayer is about – sure, we may sometimes talk to him about our needs or other people's needs, but first and foremost it's about communicating with someone I love, not always using words) is in a place that is quiet, where there is not a lot going on visually – if I can stare at an open sky or at a blank wall I'm happiest, if there's a lit candle or a cross to focus on that works for me but if there's a lot of visual stimulus I find that distracting. but then for others, they actually need visual stimulus to help them connect with God. we just need to learn to accept these differences rather than saying things like: to pray properly you must kneel and put your hands together and close your eyes/you must go into a special building/you must say these words/etc etc etc…

  17. Michael Romeo
    31 March 2011

    Yes, Heaven is the final destination, whatever Heaven turns out to be. But I also meditate for guidance along the path in the here and now. For that I try not to have a destination. I try to focus on enjoying the journey.

  18. Meirav Berale
    31 March 2011

    lol… no, like Michael said it's Myers Briggs terminology – SJ as a personality type is someone who tends to learn about the world mostly through their senses, and who prefers life to be orderly, organised, structured. This is as opposed to an NP (which is what I am) who relies more on intuition and prefers their life to be less structured.

  19. Hilly O
    31 March 2011

    Ok next question Myers Briggs? (wanna PM me on this)

  20. Meirav Berale
    31 March 2011

    it's a personality type theory, based on work by Jung. and if I PM you then you'll miss the chance of getting Meg to explain – and nearly all I know about it I learned from her :)

  21. Hilly O
    31 March 2011

    OK…..I left Jung behind a long time ago.

  22. Meg Dunn
    1 April 2011

    i'm not an expert on this by any means, but i *think* you'd refer to yourself as an NF when comparing yourself to an SJ. it's weird, because if you're talking about J then you should compare it to P. but when i see different types get grouped together, there's the SJ/SP type vs. the NT/NF type. since i'm NT and you're NF, i'd be interested in comparing preferences for worship. i think the times when i've felt most connected to God are times when i'm alone in the wilderness somewhere. (and i generally want a piece of paper and a pen on hand so i can write things down.) since growing in my understanding of the important of "church" and community, i'd say that the next best set of times when i've felt connected to God are when i'm surrounded by his people and someone's singing off key and someone else is doing some other goofy thing but we're all doing it whole heartedly to God. that's when i feel not just connected to God, but wrapped up in his whole story, the story of his people and i'm a part of it. prayer for me is often more of an on again off again chatter with God. i always felt like i wasn't "doing it right" because you're supposed to shut your eyes and concentrate and say spiritually type things, right. and that's not how i'd do it. but after reading the Soul Types book, i got a better sense that it's ok to wander a bit when i pray and that conversation is ok. i'm still a pathetic pray-er, but not because i'm doing it wrong. it's just that i don't do it often enough. i also wish i could spend more time just sitting and thinking. it's hard to do that, especially since having kids. i used to get out and take walks more often and i could meditate/connect/think then. but then i moved to san francisco where you can't walk out your front door without running into someone and having to interrupt any meditation with saying hello. and then i had kids, which pretty much cut me off from moments of silence with a quick finality. as they're getting older, i'm starting to get the opportunity for more quietish times. that's a good thing.

  23. Meg Dunn
    1 April 2011

    lol!here's the super quickie version. let me preface by saying that none of these things are "right" or "wrong" they're all just different. and just because i'm one thing doesn't mean i don't sometimes do things that fit under the opposite category. it's just that i tend to do that one thing more often (especially when left to my own devices and not under pressure from work or situation). Introvert vs. Extrovert: Generally introverts need alone time to recharge. They prefer getting to know fewer people at a deeper level. They are often content to not travel much. Extroverts are energized by meeting with new people or being in a crowd. They tend to think a little faster on their feet. (I've got a post on the brain chemistry difference if you're interested.) And they tend to be outdoors more or out and about in general more. iNtuitive vs. Sensing: N's tend to see a bunch of trees and think, it's a forest! they see the big picture and like to see connections between fairly disparate things. they are also more comfortable with stretching or rewriting the rules. S's, on the other hand, look at a bunch of trees and see a bunch of trees. they can be incredibly detail oriented. (i'm an N. i see details and start to arrange them together into a bigger picture. my husband is an S. he sees a bunch of details and he makes sure he knows and understands each detail intimately. he's great at reading really boring legal documents.) Thinking vs. Feeling: We all have thoughts and feelings, but T's tend to make their decisions based on some logical bit of reasoning. (Their logic might be off, but at least they're still using logic.) T's tend to like reading, studying, teaching… cerebral stuff. They're often considered rather "cold" because even though they have feelings, they don't feel the need to express them very often. F's are more in tune with their feelings and they find that important. They're better at reading people and connecting with them. Though an F might think they're making a logical decision, it's very likely that they are making a decision based on feeling and then finagling some logic to fit their decision. Captain Kirk was an F. Spock is the ultimate T.Judging vs. Perceiving: J's like things to be decided. They are uneasy with decisions being dragged out. In my experience, J's also like to decide things for others. sometimes J's are more organized and less messy than P's. but i'd like to say that because i'm an N, i'm able to handle the clutter better than most J's. (that's my excuse, at least. i'll either go with that, or with "i'm an overwhelmed J." P's tend to be ever so much more easy going. having to make a decision is stressful. they'd rather take the time and get all the information first. then they'll decide… maybe. though P's might have very strong opinions about things, unlike a J they'll often keep it to themselves, at least when they're around the person they're judging. there's all sorts of nuances with various combinations of these things. and two people with the same personality type can be very different from each other. i've found the INTJ group here incredibly interesting because we all think pretty differently about politics, religion and big topics like that. but when we talk about how we feel about using the phone, or making small talk, or meeting up with people for a social event vs. meeting up with people at a conference. the similarities then are uncanny.

  24. Meirav Berale
    1 April 2011

    on and off chatter with God – yes, exactly! that describes my prayer life so well.when I'm having what I think of as a deliberate time-with-God, I sit and look out of the window and I kind of flow between talking to him and just being quiet, and when I talk to him it tends to be in these kind of rambly half sentences, because he knows what I'm thinking.I also need pen and paper – because now and again I get a profound thought that I need to write down so that I won't lose it; also because if a non-profound thought comes as a distraction (must remember to buy potatoes – that sort of thing) then writing it down is a way of getting rid of it.oh, and sometimes I hear God when I've just woken up, when my brain isn't cluttered yet – just lying in bed before getting up, or in the shower.i always felt like i wasn't "doing it right"That's what the author of this book describes too, going through a large chunk of life feeling guilty because she couldn't fit into the mould which had been presented to her as the one way to do it. And of course I've been through attempts to pray in ways that just don't work for me at all, and feeling bad about it until I started to figure out that there were other ways, all valid.One of the things she mentions that works well for SJs is using a set order, like the ACTS thing which I remember being taught in the Anglican church – Adoration, Confession, Thanksgiving, Supplication – which to me sounds so artificial and unfeeling and anyway how would I be able to connect with God if I'm concentrating on doing things in the right sequence… but I wonder if that's something that works for you too, as a J?(just seen your other comment come up but I'd better go to bed and read that tomorrow. it's nearly 5 here.)

  25. Meg Dunn
    1 April 2011

    oh yes. ACTS is big in our SJ church. there's another one too, but i forget the acronym. if i'm praying on my own, then yeah, ACTS doesn't even come to mind. but if i'm helping to plan some sort of group prayer meeting, then i do tend to think that we should follow some sort of order.if i sit down on my own with the intention of praying, then i pretty much think of everything but what i'm there to be praying about. but if i go for a walk and things come to mind, then i feel like i can chat with God about them and i end up covering more ground. i still walk in circles and loops and tangents, but i spend more time on each thing before looping off to the next thing. i do find that praying in groups (a group that i feel really connected with) helps me pray more often on my own. some how it gets me in the groove and then i stay there more readily on my own. this doesn't work with a group of people i don't know or who i think are just going through the motions. but if i'm surrounded by people who are falling before God around me, then i tend to fall before him more myself, not only with them, but on my own as well. i first noticed this in college and it was the beginning of my understanding of the value of community.

  26. Meg Dunn
    1 April 2011

    *gasp!*

  27. Meg Dunn
    1 April 2011

    there used to be a tutorial on it, but i can't find it. this might be the second best thing: http://usersupport.multiply.com/notes/item/2331

  28. Hilly O
    1 April 2011

    I think that makes me an INTJ…introspective intuitive thinking (too) judging Spiritual rather than soul-searching.

  29. Meg Dunn
    1 April 2011

    there are tests for this as well. take one of the jung tests: http://similarminds.com/personality_tests.htmlthe key to doing a test, though, is thinking about what you want, how you'd behave on your own. if you respond based on how you are at work or some place where you're required to be a certain way and you rise to the challenge, that might not be your personality type.to find out more about INTJ's, you can look up these sites. the descriptions might not fit 100%, but if you're an INTJ they'll at least seem very familiar:http://www.personalitypage.com/INTJ.htmlhttp://www.keirsey.com/4temps/mastermind.asphttp://www.mypersonality.info/personality-types/intj/

  30. Meirav Berale
    1 April 2011

    I cheat with a little bit of html code – the code before the text I'm quoting is:div class=quotetand then at the end the code is:/diveach of them in those triangular brackets for html code.it doesn't do all the extra frills (like "so-and-so said" and those pretty quotation marks) but it shows the quoted text in that shaded box so it's clear you're quoting someone.

Comments are welcome!

Information

This entry was posted on 31 March 2011 by in Uncategorized and tagged , , , , , , , , .
Lyagushka (Meirav)

Lyagushka (Meirav)

My penguin is mostly harmless.

Personal Links

View Full Profile →